What Happens If You Get Ripped Off Buying A Used Car On The Internet?

"SteveLehto" (stevelehto) 10/28/2014 at 13:00 • Filed to: None

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Some people see deals too tempting to pass up on the internet. A car in another state, the price is just right and the pictures look good. You can safely buy a used car - trusting the listing - without getting ripped off, right? Guess what the attorney is going to tell you?

"Scott" shopped for cars online and found one he liked. The car was in Detroit but he lived in another state. The seller sent him photographs of the 2 year-old vehicle showing it to be in immaculate condition. They negotiated a price and Scott sent the funds. The seller agreed to ship the car to him.

A few days later, a truck pulled up in front of Scott's house with the vehicle on it. He went out and as he approached the truck he immediately noticed something wrong. The vehicle delivered was the same make, model and color as the one in the pictures but either it was a different vehicle or the pictures he was sent were "before" the vehicle had been in an accident and poorly straightened. Body panels were so far off there was no question the vehicle had been wrecked.

The truck driver pulled out a clipboard and asked him to sign. The sheet showed the driver had picked the vehicle up in its present condition. It looked like one of those sheets you see at a car rental place to indicate damage. There were red circles all over the document. When Scott indicated he would not sign for the vehicle and wanted to refuse delivery, the truck driver told him he had another load to pick up so he had to leave the vehicle with him. The vehicle got dumped in front of his house.

Luckily, Scott saved the photos he had been sent as well as screen shots of the internet ads for the vehicle. Take note: about half the people who call me about bad internet transactions did not think to save the ads until it was too late. Bad guys often pull down their ads the second they have your money.

Scott contacted the seller who told him to take a flying leap. The ad said the vehicle was being !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! so – in his opinion – no refunds. Scott contacted me and after I viewed all of his documents I informed him that he was not out of luck. "As-Is" merely means there is no warranty of merchantability. It does not absolve a seller of, for instance, a bait-and-switch.

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

I filed suit against the seller for a variety of things – fraud, breach of warranty, breach of contract – and had him served with the lawsuit. A few days later I got a phone call from an attorney. The first offer? They would refund the purchase price of the vehicle if we shipped the vehicle back and ate the shipping charges both ways.

We countered and said that we would agree to take their money when it was enough to refund the purchase price, shipping both ways and my attorney's fees and costs. The other attorney said I was "black mailing" them and that I should be ashamed of myself. This, from an attorney representing a man who ships wrecked vehicles to people who respond to ads showing pristine ones.

A few days later, the attorney called back and said they would agree to my demand. Full refund, shipping, attorney's fees and court costs etc.

This story ended well but I am amazed at how some people have no qualms about buying large and expensive items sight-unseen from the internet. Scott obviously hadn't laid eyes on the vehicle or test driven it. Who knows what else might have been wrong with it even if it HAD been delivered to him as it appeared in the pictures? Pictures don't show engine problems, transmission defects, or any of the other countless things which might afflict used cars. What if it pulled to one side? What if it smelled because a family of skunks had climbed in the trunk and died? I've seen photos taken by internet sellers who carefully shot "around" obvious problems with a car they were selling. And the vehicle above? The Carfax was clean - so you can't always count on that.

I know some people are going to chime in here and suggest that this transaction would have been "protected" if it had happened on Ebay. True, Ebay offers !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! but it only covers very specific circumstances. And, I can tell you from personal experience that the program is not administered by Ebay and dealing with it is like trying to file a claim with someone else's insurance company.

Do I need to tell you I recommend you not do this? And by this , I mean buy a vehicle where your only knowledge of it comes from the internet and you won't see it until after you buy it. If the urge to buy over the internet like this overwhelms you despite my admonition then there are some things you might want to consider.

First, save copies of the internet ad. Print it out, get a screen shot, whatever works. Bookmarking the page is not enough. Download all of the pictures in the highest resolution you can and save them. Negotiate a price similar to what you would pay if you were buying locally but the seller refused to let you have a test drive. After all, you aren't getting one here either. And keep in mind that if the deal falls apart, it is often much messier than if you got ripped off by a local seller. Especially if your seller is out-of-state. I've handled several of these cases and have noticed that a disproportionate number of the problems arise when the parties are in different states. I suspect that some sellers specifically look for buyers in other states, hoping the distance will insulate them from liability. It doesn't; but that doesn't mean it will be any easier to straighten out either.

Follow me on Twitter: !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

Steve Lehto has been practicing law for 23 years, specializing in consumer protection and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! He wrote !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . He also wrote !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

This website may supply general information about the law but it is for informational purposes only. This does not create an attorney-client relationship and is not meant to constitute legal advice, so the good news is we're not billing you by the hour for reading this. The bad news is that you shouldn't act upon any of the information without consulting a qualified professional attorney who will, probably, bill you by the hour.

Aaron James > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 13:09

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I would have to assume this a big reason why we see Craigslist ads for example , published on the California Craigslist while the seller states the car is currently located in Pennsylvania. That always throws up the red flags for me.

SteveLehto > Aaron James 10/28/2014 at 13:10

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Probably. But some people also (for some odd reason) feel safe shopping for cars on line in other states and then just seeing how comfortable they feel after they speak with the seller on the phone. I've seen these problems on every site out there.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 13:12

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I have nothing to add to this except that I'm gobsmacked by the possibility of a >$100,000 MX5.

SteveLehto > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 10/28/2014 at 13:13

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I think that search would show you every one UNDER $100K. But yes, I was shooting for comedic results when I was setting that up.

desertdog5051 > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 13:16

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Why that just seems stupid. What kind of moron does that. Oh yeah, I forgot how many morons there are on this earth. As they say, "there is an ass for every seat." Thanks, Steve.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 13:16

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I know your search was set up to show you everything *under* 100k. I was, however, drawing on the fact that it implicitly excludes the *over* 100k Miatas. What amazing marvel are you excluding?

SteveLehto > desertdog5051 10/28/2014 at 13:17

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I am constantly amazed. And, it keeps me busy.

SteveLehto > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 10/28/2014 at 13:19

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Oh, that had occurred to me too. I was wondering, after I posted it, how it would look if I had drawn it in a Venn diagram.

Steve in Manhattan > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 13:19

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I think the only way I'd buy a car sight unseen is to use something like the Car Guys Mechanix Files, find a local mechanic, and have that mechanic inspect and test drive the car and confirm the VIN. And pay for it myself. Still, so much to go wrong.

SteveLehto > Steve in Manhattan 10/28/2014 at 13:20

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I've had people who did that. Hired someone local (or sent over someone they knew who lived in the area). But it is so hard to get this right.

thevictor390 > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 13:24

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I live in Massachusetts and bought my RX-8 online, sight-unseen, from Detroit. I guess I felt relatively safe since it was at a large dealership.... but even until now I never considered how badly it could have gone.

SteveLehto > thevictor390 10/28/2014 at 13:27

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A large dealership in Detroit and you felt SAFE?!?!?!?!?

Seriously - I have had dealers who were the "bad guys" in stories like this.

djmt1 > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 13:33

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You really deserve your own Sub blog. Keep up the good work.

SteveLehto > djmt1 10/28/2014 at 13:34

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Thanks. On Thursdays I write for Car Buying but I just have too much stuff to write about to limit myself to one day a week.

Jordaneer, The Mountaineer Man > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 13:40

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I bought my first car off of craigslist about 3 months ago, when we test drove it (twice actually) it seemed to work fine, I wouldn't have thought of doing this for this reason, I did save the ad on my desktop and uploaded the photos to oppo from the ad. I'm glad I did this, I haven't had any problems other than I can't figure out how to get the winshield washer to work, and there isn't a locking hood latch striker, so I need to go buy another one from the local junkyard. Anyway great article as always Steve!

Jonee > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 13:46

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I've bought many an out of state (or country) classic car sight unseen without any big issues, but that's a different animal. I always know what I'm getting into.

thevictor390 > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 13:50

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It was technically in Ann Arbor... but looking back on it, I certainly feel lucky it worked out. I did fly down and drive the car back so there was a chance to resolve conflicts.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 13:53

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Well they aren't ALL bad in Detroit Steve!

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > thevictor390 10/28/2014 at 13:53

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You bought an RX-8, you're a glutton for punishment anyhow

SteveLehto > Jonee 10/28/2014 at 13:53

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Priced accordingly, I hope?

SteveLehto > thevictor390 10/28/2014 at 13:54

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That is a little better - that you could see it while it was still in their possession. Raises the question of what would have happened if you had found something out at the time of delivery.

SteveLehto > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 10/28/2014 at 13:55

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I've sued them all (but some more than others).

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 13:58

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Hahaha fair enough...

next time I'm going to visit a local dealer I'll direct message you on twitter!

Jonee > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 14:03

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I've never felt ripped off. I always ask for lots of photos or even video. Old car people tend to be fairly accommodating, I've found. At least the ones that have the oddball cars I want.

Ltd783 > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 14:06

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Good advice. When I bought my car over the internet out of state (Volvo was from Boston, they're thin on the ground here where I am in OK), I had the seller take it to the local Volvo dealer (Boston Volvo Village) and do a PPI. The dealership faxed me the report directly, and I personally spoke to the mechanic who did my inspection on the phone. This allowed me to even ask his opinion of the car, beyond the requirements of the PPI, like scratches and stuff. He loved it, said "It's a beautiful caaahhh". That really helped alleviate any nervousness.

Still, I hate the idea of shipping my new toy, and handing over my money before I see it. This was just for peace of mind before I bothered buying a plane ticket, flew to Boston, handed him the certified check after I drove it to his house from the airport, and then drove it home to OK myself.

SteveLehto > Ltd783 10/28/2014 at 14:08

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That's not a bad way to go. Thanks for the note.

Robert > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 14:08

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I bought a car from eBay, but it was from a dealer in PA (I'm in MI). It turned out to be a great transaction and got lucky with the car. 1995 Nissan 240sx had 120k on it, paid $4k shipped. 10 years, 110k miles later, it runs fine and i haven't put much money into it at all. I bought another car on eBay from private seller who lived about an hour away. Talked to him an hour and made the car sound like it was the best thing ever (i really think he thought that). Got it without testing and it was such a POS. When you're plopping down that much money on something, go out of your way to test it to make sure it works. If I find a car out of state and if I really wanted it and couldn't find it close to home, i would fly out and take a look. it's not worth the headaches.

SteveLehto > Robert 10/28/2014 at 14:10

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Thanks for the note. As you see, it can go both ways.

roflcopter > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 14:12

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I bought my current toy from an internet forum and I think my approach was very straightforward and made sure nothing too terrible could happen...

The seller and I discussed the car and had agreed on a price I would pay IF AND ONLY IF the car was exactly as described. I asked him if he would cover paying the dealership to go over the car as well as perform 2 tests that would display common problems with the car. He agreed and I went ahead and bought a round trip ticket to his town and flew in to meet him at the dealership where he had dropped the car off earlier. Got to see the thing on the lifts and walk through it with the techs, test drive it, then hand him the check.

It went very smoothly and I liked knowing that worst case I could turn around and hop on the flight back in the morning with nothing more than a few hundred bucks lost, which really isn't much when you're looking to spend tens of thousands on a car. I really don't think I would have trusted enough to buy and have the car shipped unless a LOT of hoops were jumped through.

Tohru > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 14:13

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I've sold two vehicles to out-of-state buyers. Both transactions were on eBay, and I fully documented the condition of the vehicle in the ad.

One was a 1981 Honda CB900C motorcycle. It had a weak 2nd gear and liked eating spark plugs on the right half of the engine. Guy drove from Indiana to get it. The motorcycle was so heavy that when it was loaded into his truck it broke the tailgate straps.

The other was a 1996 Ford Bronco XLT, in excellent shape. The buyer lived in Michigan, and rode the ferry over to get it. We met him at the ferry dock. He walked off the boat, checked out the truck, paid for it, and drove it onto the ferry.

The best one, however, is from my dad. He had an 80's Werks Marine Fazer (a unique "picklefork" style personal watercraft made in Florida), and he sold it on eBay. The winning bidder drove from Florida to Wisconsin in a 454ci. Suburban with the whole family to come pick it up. He lived a half-hour away from the former Werks Marine facility where the PWC was made.

A Werks Marine Fazer (not the actual one we had, but same model):

Steve in Manhattan > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 14:15

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Even a professional can miss things.

bob and john > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 14:17

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great work steve!

I read your other comment on only writing twice a week.
I know how you feel. I've been writing those motorcycle articles and I want to post one everyday...But I know I'll burn out fast if I do!

Keep up the good work!

SteveLehto > bob and john 10/28/2014 at 14:23

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I tell myself two a week. No more, no less. And I always keep one on standby so as not to worry about ever running out.

Thanks for the note.

Mike H. > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 14:26

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These are great articles Steve. Thanks for posting them...

KillerBee > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 14:28

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I made this mistake once. Thankfully it wasn't for a huge expense, and the seller was pretty reasonable.

The first thing I ever bought on Ebay was a 1988.5 Suzuki Samurai. This was in 2002 (I think), The car was in DC, I was in Baltimore. Seller said it was in good shape, photo (yes, one photo) looked decent. The seller had moved to Philadelphia a couple months prior and left the car behind in a garage. Well that sounded ok, I thought. It hasn't been sitting out in the weather all this time. The photo even showed it under roof.

I won the auction, sent my $1300, and the seller sent me the keys and the title. I and a friend followed his directions to garage, but had a really hard time finding the place until we realized that the "garage" was actually an underground parking garage at the sellers former place of business. Once we got in there, we found the car three stories underground, well-protected from the elements. Well... all the elements but one. Have you ever been in a cave? Do you know how damp and humid it gets in there? Do you know what happens when you leave a large piece of poor-quality steel in a dark, humid environment for several months? Yeah, this thing was a total rusty mess.

The drive belt broke when I started it, since the alternator was seized. We had to leave and come back the next day with a new alternator and belt, and change them out in the dim light of the garage. Successful, I drove it home and immediately got on the phone to the seller (this was back when you could get that information from eBay). Long story short, he apologized for the condition of the car and gave me $500 back. I fixed a few other rusty bits, but my $800 Samurai lasted a couple more years and got me through at least one very harsh winter before the transmission went out and I had to let her go. She lived on as a rock-crawler for who knows how long.

SteveLehto > KillerBee 10/28/2014 at 14:30

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Wow. Amazing what you can't tell from a single picture!

Thanks for the note.

kis_ev > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 14:40

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I bought 3 cars from out of state, but flew to or took a road trip to inspect the cars before purchase.

2004 - I contacted the seller of a 01 VW Golf TDI I found on craigslist.org to have him pick me up in his car at his local airport. I bought a Bentley manual and familiarized myself with the car and started on account on tdiclub.com to research common problems owners have had. My mom dropped me off at LAX and the owner picked me up at PHX. I test drove the car, inspected under the hood and body, looked over the maintenance records, and wired the money to his account. We went out to lunch with his wife and stopped by a notary to sign off on our transaction. They offered to let me stay the night at their lovely house, but it was only 2pm and I knew I could drive it back and be home by 8pm. I made a wonderful friend through the experience, got a fantastic deal (he sold it to me to the remainder of the car loan balance, which was $3.5K below market price), and I've had the car problem-free ever since.

The other two times I purchased cars from AZ (another TDI for a friend and a Lexus Rx400h for my wife) were fast and simple, but nothing compares to the transaction in 2004.

SteveLehto > kis_ev 10/28/2014 at 14:42

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Cool stories. Thanks for sharing.

Michael Reed > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 14:58

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In cases like this, are lawsuits filed in the defendant's state/commonwealth, or the plaintiffs? I'm guessing (IANAL, obviously) that judgements are more easily enforced i the defendant's locale?

SteveLehto > Michael Reed 10/28/2014 at 15:01

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You often have a choice (meaning you can sue in either location) but I have only handled ones where I could file them in Michigan (where I am licensed) and that is where the defendant resided - and you are right, it made them more easy to collect from.

Michael Reed > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 15:03

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Thanks, Steve! Love the column, it's my favorite on Jalopnik.

SteveLehto > Michael Reed 10/28/2014 at 15:04

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Thanks for reading (and the nice comment)!

Herr Quattro - Has a 4-Motion > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 15:10

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Please, do tell.

ME 4-12 > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 10/28/2014 at 15:11

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A brand new 2014 sent straight to Flyin Miata for their LS V8 swap wouldn't even cost over $100k.

Arrivederci > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 15:12

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Bought my old 2006 Miata sight unseen from Brumos Porsche in Jacksonville, FL about six years ago. Car looked even better in person than it did in pictures. I did travel there to pick it up in person and sign the paperwork, and would've been easier to refuse if they had misrepresented it, but by seeing it in person before taking delivery and buying from a well-established seller, I felt pretty confident.

Buying from an unknown person on the internet and have it shipped to my house? Can't say I'd ever do that.

Krash-Kadillak > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 15:17

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I live in Oregon, and I purchased a vehicle advertised in Wisconsin, on Craig's List. My transaction was successful for two reasons: 1) I had someone I trust in the area inspect and drive the vehicle for me. 2) I spoke personally on the phone with the seller enough to develop a trusting relationship. The vehicle was delivered to me exactly as described.

amanaplanpanama > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 15:18

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I did this once, purchase a car sight-unseen from a dealer in WA moving out from ND. I got lucky, just traded the car in last week after a number of years of perfect operation. Literally the only thing that needed to be fixed was a new driver's side mirror (seller disclosed issue). I actually bought another car from this guy because of how well that purchase went, and that second car was good too.

That said, it was a terrible idea. I just bought a car last weekend after 10 months of research and waiting. Much better going in with knowledge than submitting yourself to luck of the draw.

SteveLehto > Krash-Kadillak 10/28/2014 at 15:20

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#1 is huge. #2, I'm leery of. I've met some people who can come across really well on the phone . . . Thanks for the note.

Andrew Kizewic > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 15:21

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You know Steve, im an aspiring law student and you have further inspired me to follow my dreams. I'd love to help the people of the world and make sure law is practiced the proper way and have my part in making this world a better place. Just wanted to take time to let you know that you have motivated somebody! I intend on taking my LSAT this June and I am very excited for the journey ahead.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 15:21

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The only time I would ever buy a car sight unseen is if it were a weird car that I was importing. For example, I really want a Lancia Delta, which (like most nice things) was not sold here. Even then, I'd be beyond nervous and would probably end up turning the search for one into a vacation so that I can see it before buying.

DMCVegas > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 15:22

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Two relatable stories on this:

1. I read an offer about a car that was for sale in Half Moon Bay, Ca. The seller had a good price, and lots of memorebelia to go with the car. Even offered free shipping from San Francisco to Las Vegas since her friend with a trailer owed her a favor. I spent the cash and took a flight up there to look at it. 2 blocks from the ocean, some rust on the frame, and moss growing in the door seals. I passed. I still regret it sometimes because I *could* have fixed it now days, and it had so many goodies to go along with it, but not at the time no I wasn't as inclined mechanically.

2. It's heresay as I wasn't involved, but the story that convinced me to see that car in person came from another DeLorean owner in Washington D.C. that was also involved in a Ferrari club. One of the members was about to buy his first car, and saw an eBay auction for one that just seemed to good to pass up. But the guy even had a title that said Ferrari, so he bought the car sight unseen. He arraigned the shipping, and set up an appointment to have the car delivered to the local Ferrari specialist's garage to have a complete going over. The day of the arrival the shop owner told him he needed to come down and pick the car up because it wasn't a Ferrari and he couldn't work on it. Guy shows up, they pop the engine cover, and staring back at him but one of these:

Turns out that the former owner had washed the title by registering the kit car between states, and had them change the name from Pontiac to Ferrari along the way. Same way you can sometimes wash-off the salvage title, and something kit car owners have been known to do.

ALWAYS inspect cars in person, even if the photos match and the paperwork seems legit!

SteveLehto > Andrew Kizewic 10/28/2014 at 15:24

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It's funny because I always loved cars but hadn't realized I could make my profession "car law" until I was out of law school. It's a niche but it works for me. And there are not enough of us out there - lawyers who know about cars.

What state are you in?

dmat > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 15:25

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That sight unseen can really bite you sometimes. I was looking for a car to buy for my mom last year. Well I found a car that I thought would be pretty good for her. All the pictures made it look nice on the outside and the inside wasnt too bad either. Well if not for me going to see it in person over the weekend, I'm pretty sure she would have gotten a former driving range target from a golf course. It had golf ball size hail damage on every upward facing surface. Even that slight bulge on most doors below the window. I dont know how it ended up like that but the online pictures showed 0% of that damage.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > ME 4-12 10/28/2014 at 15:25

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There has to be a way.

Arrivederci > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 15:26

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All of your pieces are great - you could write something daily and I'd probably read every bit of it!

klurejr > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 15:26

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I cannot even begin to imagine purchasing an out of state vehicle without having a local liaison go and visit the vehicle in person and confirm that vehicle is in good standing.

More importantly because I live in California and the laws are so weird here regarding things like smog I imagine importing an out of state car has even more liabilities that I would need to consider. I have never purchased anything but California cars since I first got my DL 18 years ago.

SteveLehto > DMCVegas 10/28/2014 at 15:26

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That's got to be the funniest example I have heard (although it would not be funny if it happened to you). Thanks!

TheWuWu > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 15:27

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In a case like this, what's the initial up front cost of lawyering up? And what's the chances of settling in the same result as the guy you helped?

I think a lot of people try this bait and switch tactic online because they know most people:

1. Don't want to go through the hassle of lawyering up.

2. Think it's too expensive to hire a lawyer.

I think I fall under camp #2. But your answer will change my perspective if I was to buy a car online and get bait/switched.

dmat > ME 4-12 10/28/2014 at 15:28

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brand new 2014 miata sent to tesla for the D conversion.

VashVashVash > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 15:28

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People actaully do this? By this I mean, send money for a car and wait for it to arrive? Boggles the mind

I bought all but the very first one of my cars on the internet. By which I mean, I found the car on the internet, negotiated a price, drove up to where it was (twice over 2k miles) test drove it, then paid for it. Sometimes, there were deposits involved. But I am never going to buy a car without driving it first.

ayaws > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 15:29

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I bought a 2013 Toyota Land Cruiser from an Audi dealer in Chicago. Did most of the deal including a $1K deposit over the phone. Then bought a plane ticket for me and the wife and flew to Chicago. Salesman picked us up at Midway in it, I drove it back to the dealership and wrote the final check. Ended up being a good deal, I got a test drive, and a long long test drive on the trip home to Denver...not to mention the kid-free weekend with my wife in Chicago. (Oh — and I had a Chicago-based buddy crawl around it for me.)

That was an expensive trip but one I'd do again!

porschephile463 > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 15:29

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Every car I've ever bought has been off the Internet. but I would NEVER buy a car haven't seen with my own eyes, this means I negotiate a price then fly there to pick it up in person and pay them after I've seen the car. So far I haven't had to walk away from a deal but I'm sure I will eventually....however my 996 turbo is basically the most mass produced car of ever bought...

SteveLehto > TheWuWu 10/28/2014 at 15:30

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Still better to not have it happen to you. If there is any way to recover attorney fees from the seller, an attorney might take a case like this on a contingency (meaning you don't own any fees unless you win). Many attorneys will take a case like this (especially if the seller looks collectible) without requiring ANY up front money.

When in doubt, call around and ask. An attorney will tell you this stuff up front and without charge and will often do the initial consultation for free anyway. I talk to people for free all the time. If I can't take their case I still give them all the free advice they can handle.

Thanks for the note.

TZ250racer > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 15:30

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Great articles Steve! I was wondering what advice you would have for someone in my situation where I bought a used car from out of state (because Miata), but the seller hasn't mailed me the title, and now has dropped off the face of the planet. I've started the process to bond for a title, but is it possible to go after him for the cost of the surety bond?

SteveLehto > VashVashVash 10/28/2014 at 15:31

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Yes. People do this. And No, I do not recommend it. (I agree with you 100%).

SteveLehto > TZ250racer 10/28/2014 at 15:33

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Wow. Another problem I hadn't considered when writing this. You can TRY but the title itself is the tricky part. You'd need to consult with a local attorney on that.

bobrayner > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 15:33

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This story ended well but I am amazed at how some people have no qualms about buying large and expensive items sight-unseen from the internet.

In countries with modern consumer-protection laws, this is much less of a problem. I routinely buy large and expensive items sight-unseen from the internet. I don't lose any sleep over it, because the law says that if the product arrives with a problem like that, then I can cancel the sale and get a refund, and delivery/recollection costs are automatically on the vendor (because of course they should be), and a lot of grey areas have been removed.

SteveLehto > bobrayner 10/28/2014 at 15:36

1

Which country are you in?

And more importantly, what if the seller refuses to refund your money?

Andrew Kizewic > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 15:36

0

Ohio! Toledo specifically. Currently a student at the University of Toledo, most likely going to stay here for law school as well.

wætherman > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 15:36

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Well this takes all the fun out of my Tuesday afternoon hobby; typing "porsche 993 low miles site:craigslist.org" in to google...

macanamera > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 15:37

1

Ive got an MX-5 that Ill let you have for 99k. Heck, 95k, because I like you.

SteveLehto > Andrew Kizewic 10/28/2014 at 15:37

1

Nice. Keep in touch. And follow me on Twitter if you don't already. If I can help in any way, let me know. @stevelehto

SteveLehto > wætherman 10/28/2014 at 15:38

2

Keep at it! I never said it wasn't fun. It's just not wise (And what in life is both FUN and WISE?!)

Cory_McM > thevictor390 10/28/2014 at 15:38

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I bought a RX-8 a few years ago, it was wrecked and rebuilt and I never drove it. I had it for 4 years, worked ok till it got cold.

Finegreensilk1 > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 15:39

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I would imagine the people buying a vehicle uninspected by a trustworthy middleman or mechanic are the same who'd wire money to a friendly Nigerian prince or foreign lottery winner. They're suckers and I feel pity for their stupidity.

TZ250racer > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 15:39

1

Thanks Steve! Glad to bring up something else that might save someone some heartache in the future- I'm not worried about getting a title, since I've done all the requisite title search work as required by my state (Colorado) to get a title, but it's just a little more salt into the wound to have to pay more out of pocket to get something that I (in hindsight) should have gotten when I drove off with the car... Hard lesson learned.

The Devil Drives a Mustang (Rotary Pending) > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 10/28/2014 at 15:41

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There has to be a way.

Miata with a Ferrari Colombo swap?

SteveLehto > Finegreensilk1 10/28/2014 at 15:41

1

I think there is a slight difference between the two but not sure how much. I think that some people think that since they can speak to and email with the person at the other end, they are somehow trustworthy. Or something.

Obviously, if someone asked me BEFORE they did this, I'd be all about talking them out of it. But as with 99% of my practice, people don't call me preemptively. They call me after, for damage control.

bitpushr > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 15:41

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Why is that hard to get right? Because it's hard to find someone to do the checking, or hard to logistically coordinate it, or because it's hard to find a seller to agree to it? I'm genuinely curious.

Andrew Kizewic > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 15:41

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Most definitely will! I feel confident in my current way of thinking and how its going to relate to things like the LSAT. My mind set already matches up with much of what im learning while I prepare for the exam.

wætherman > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 15:42

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Thanks for the words of encouragement. I think based on your advice, I'll try to limit my fantasy purchases to the Northeast Corridor - Baltimore's just a couple hours away... :)

Jumbojeepman > VashVashVash 10/28/2014 at 15:43

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I've purchased many a car over the internet, both CL and eBay. I always go pick it up (I've been 1000 miles a couple of times) and withhold payment until I have inspected the car and verified it's as advertised. I just factor transportation costs into the deal when I make an offer.

SteveLehto > bitpushr 10/28/2014 at 15:43

2

I think most people don't know where to begin to find a trustworthy mechanic who can do an inspection on a particular car in some faraway place. Most people don't get used cars inspected when they buy locally!

SomeGuyFromDetroit > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 15:46

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I recently bought a car over the Internet from a dealer in Ohio. They were adamant that there were other people interested in it, and I'd spent so long trying to buy one that I was interested in securing my spot in line (as it were) - I'd missed out on 3 others because the seller wouldn't wait for me to come out on the weekend. So, in the (foolish?) interest of getting the car, I put down a $3000 deposit over the phone via credit card.

I ended up taking the car, but I'm left to wonder - having put down a deposit like that with a dealership, how badly could I have been burnt if I'd decided the things that were wrong with it (of which there are a few) were beyond what I was willing to stomach, and not bought the car? I'd signed no paperwork at that point (I was careful not to commit to purchase in writing or verbally, since I hadn't driven the car yet). Would I have been within my rights to get a refund on the deposit? Would the dealer have had any right to claim part (or all) of it as theirs, for wasting their time?

It seems to me this could have ended up a nightmare for me...

Birddog > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 15:46

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I'm guilty of "doing this".

It's almost always an older vehicle that I purchase and I usually know what problems to expect. Even if the seller doesn't disclose them.

I've been lucky that nobody's pulled a bait and switch like your case. I always keep copies of all pics, ads and emails just in case.

Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 15:46

1

Comic result achieved.

Bravo, good sir.

jimmy-buffett > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 15:47

7

Easy fix for this problem: become a member on an enthusiast website for the vehicle, then post the city/state and ask if one of the locals can inspect the car for you. Being a fellow enthusiast, odds are they'll know what to look for better than most.

Racescort666 > ME 4-12 10/28/2014 at 15:47

1

That doesn't mean that someone wouldn't try to sell one for $100k+.

Just think of all the people that list the costs of their mods and try to tell you that since they payed $5000 on a stereo, you need to pay (price of the car) + $5k.

SteveLehto > SomeGuyFromDetroit 10/28/2014 at 15:48

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Yes, it could have been bad. Regardless of whether you would have been entitled to get your money back, you would have had to sue them if they refused. That would have been a waste of time and resources.

Thanks for the note.

SteveLehto > jimmy-buffett 10/28/2014 at 15:50

4

I'm wondering now if there are cars out there for which there are no clubs - you never know. But if there is one for your car, that would be a great solution.

Admiral Asskicker > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 10/28/2014 at 15:51

1

http://carbuying.jalopnik.com/you-can-buy-th…
+
New miata

PartyPooper2012 > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 15:56

1

Steve, Great article. I usually contact my crew of attorneys after something happened. Having potential business gives them an incentive to listen. If I called for advice on every probable move I make, they would eventually stop answering their phone calls.

SomeGuyFromDetroit > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 15:56

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Oh, I'm stubborn enough that taking the time and expense of suing them doesn't even make me twitch. I was more curious if I actually was in a position to lose out on my deposit in that case. They were giving me quite a run around on the title (Ohio gives them 30 days to provide the title, it arrived on day 30, and all the while they were saying they weren't even sure if the title was theirs to begin with), so I almost ended up calling you about the car regardless...

Finegreensilk1 > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 15:57

1

Obviously you don't just have a good legal-business strategy, but a good heart, too. I'm not sure I'd have the patience for people like that.

Onlooker707 > thevictor390 10/28/2014 at 16:00

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Ann Arbor is not Detroit, there is enough money there from U of M to be one of the better if not best cities in Michigan.

Too many M's > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 16:03

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As some of my posts suggest, I'm an American living overseas in Germany. Hardship I know but it is difficult when it comes to car shopping. I like purchasing US spec cars that I know I can take home with me, but this isn't always the easiest with the cars I'm shopping for (996/997 GT3s). I could buy a Euro version for a lot more and sell it before I leave, which is a major hassle in itself, or ship one over from the states that I can keep. However I don't have enough trust for ones that I'm looking at to buy sight unseen despite a PPI. I worry about the same reasons you wrote about here. But multiplied by the complication of technically "exporting" the product to another country and wondering what actually happened on the boat.

A friend of mine recently shipped his Z06 back to the states and had $18k in damages waiting when he picked up his car. Of course the shipping company denied it all and he got legal assistance. They are eventually going to pay for the damages but buying a car I've never seem and having something similar happen on top of that really puts a sour taste in my mouth when it comes to buying at a distance.

Bdog > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 16:03

1

I bought my van from Enterprise, via eBay, sight unseen and shipped to me. Transaction was quick and flawless. I trusted Enterprise because they sell enough cars I don't think they need to scam buyers, and they had a perfect feedback score. Also, it was a Ford E350 with only 105,000 miles and they included a 150,000 power train warranty (never needed it!). Now at 392,000 trouble-free miles I still couldn't be happier with the purchase.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > The Devil Drives a Mustang (Rotary Pending) 10/28/2014 at 16:06

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I like the way you think.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Admiral Asskicker 10/28/2014 at 16:07

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Can't disagree. Seems like a sane solution, for a given value of sane.

Stiiles > SteveLehto 10/28/2014 at 16:07

1

This is excellent advice. As an ASE master tech, I've been hired by various clients to fly or drive to other states to inspect a specific, rare used car they were serious about buying, and it is always money well spent. In every case I have found undisclosed problems, from severe frame rust to malfunctioning airbag systems to rough running from cracked intake boots to nonfunctioning door handles and power windows. My clients avoided lemons, and in cases where they bought the cars they negotiated the price down accordingly, wired the funds and I drove the car back to them, which saved them the transport fee and my return airfare.